Comments on: 2009 ELCA Churchwide Assembly: Thoughts from One in the Minority http://mattcleaver.com/2009/08/21/2009-elca-churchwide-assembly-thoughts-from-one-in-the-minority/ youth ministry, reimagined Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:26:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Matt http://mattcleaver.com/2009/08/21/2009-elca-churchwide-assembly-thoughts-from-one-in-the-minority/#comment-9998 Matt Thu, 25 Nov 2010 04:43:37 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1360#comment-9998 Stanley, you get the award for reviving discussions from the dead. It's pretty impressive that you come back months later. Fair enough. Stanley, you get the award for reviving discussions from the dead. It’s pretty impressive that you come back months later.

Fair enough.

]]> By: Stanley Roethemeyer http://mattcleaver.com/2009/08/21/2009-elca-churchwide-assembly-thoughts-from-one-in-the-minority/#comment-9997 Stanley Roethemeyer Thu, 25 Nov 2010 01:16:22 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1360#comment-9997 Matt I not trying to be impressive nor judgemental, self righteous or what ever. I read the mumbo jumbo of the elca as Universal Salvation. I am not theologian nor do I wish to be especially one school in the ELCA. The elca is a cop out form of Christianity just trying to be "progressive" and be open to all forms of worship whether it is Allah, Budda, a Tree, Mother Earth, Clay idol or a fence post. Worshiping a "god" other than the Christ is not fine, unless there some other way, and the bible states there no other way by which man can be saved but though Christ. I am not ashamed nor afraid to profess this. Christian's ought to be just that Christian disciples of Christ. Either you believe or do not. Matt I not trying to be impressive nor judgemental, self righteous or what ever. I read the mumbo jumbo of the elca as Universal Salvation. I am not theologian nor do I wish to be especially one school in the ELCA.
The elca is a cop out form of Christianity just trying to be “progressive” and be open to all forms of worship whether it is Allah, Budda, a Tree, Mother Earth, Clay idol or a fence post. Worshiping a “god” other than the Christ is not fine, unless there some other way, and the bible states there no other way by which man can be saved but though Christ. I am not ashamed nor afraid to profess this. Christian’s ought to be just that Christian disciples of Christ. Either you believe or do not.

]]> By: Todd Vick http://mattcleaver.com/2009/08/21/2009-elca-churchwide-assembly-thoughts-from-one-in-the-minority/#comment-9996 Todd Vick Wed, 04 Aug 2010 02:53:18 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1360#comment-9996 Matt, Thank you for this post and your view on these matters. While I'm not an ELCA the similar issue of sexual have been a continued debate in the United Methodist Church. I have long feared the day when what is now a minority becomes a majority and we begin to ordain homosexuals, etc. I have feared this because I struggle with how I will respond. Your post sheds a new light on this issue for me and when the time comes I must consider the fact that the actions of one body do not affect the church but rather official church policy for one stream of faith within the entire story of Christianity. Matt, Thank you for this post and your view on these matters. While I’m not an ELCA the similar issue of sexual have been a continued debate in the United Methodist Church. I have long feared the day when what is now a minority becomes a majority and we begin to ordain homosexuals, etc. I have feared this because I struggle with how I will respond. Your post sheds a new light on this issue for me and when the time comes I must consider the fact that the actions of one body do not affect the church but rather official church policy for one stream of faith within the entire story of Christianity.

]]> By: Matt http://mattcleaver.com/2009/08/21/2009-elca-churchwide-assembly-thoughts-from-one-in-the-minority/#comment-9995 Matt Tue, 03 Aug 2010 17:47:18 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1360#comment-9995 Returning almost a year after your previous comment. That's pretty impressive. Now, I'm no apologist for the ELCA, but I do like to get my facts straight, so I went and looked up the ELCA "stance" on salvation. At the end of their treatment of Braaten's statements, they close with: <em>Will, then, all people be saved in the end? We must say with Braaten, "We do not ... know the answer. (That) is stored up in the mystery of God’s own future. All (God) has let us know in advance is that he will judge the world according to the measure of his grace and love made known in Jesus Christ, which is ultimately greater than the fierceness of his wrath or the hideousness of our sin."</em> Hans Urs von Balthasar has said that we cannot know whether all are saved, but we must hope for it. I, for one, believe that the grace of God can be so encompassing that it knows no bounds and could provide for the salvation of all. I hope it does. But we cannot know that until the end, and so I live my life hoping to proclaim the gospel to all people. The ELCA stance sounds much the same. Returning almost a year after your previous comment. That’s pretty impressive. Now, I’m no apologist for the ELCA, but I do like to get my facts straight, so I went and looked up the ELCA “stance” on salvation. At the end of their treatment of Braaten’s statements, they close with:

Will, then, all people be saved in the end? We must say with Braaten, “We do not … know the answer. (That) is stored up in the mystery of God’s own future. All (God) has let us know in advance is that he will judge the world according to the measure of his grace and love made known in Jesus Christ, which is ultimately greater than the fierceness of his wrath or the hideousness of our sin.”

Hans Urs von Balthasar has said that we cannot know whether all are saved, but we must hope for it. I, for one, believe that the grace of God can be so encompassing that it knows no bounds and could provide for the salvation of all. I hope it does. But we cannot know that until the end, and so I live my life hoping to proclaim the gospel to all people. The ELCA stance sounds much the same.

]]> By: Stan Roethemeyer http://mattcleaver.com/2009/08/21/2009-elca-churchwide-assembly-thoughts-from-one-in-the-minority/#comment-9994 Stan Roethemeyer Tue, 03 Aug 2010 17:22:51 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1360#comment-9994 Matt I was being absurb but no more than the ELCA has become. Their teachings are herectical. The ELCA is preaching universal salvation, anti zionism, and denial of the scripture as the word of God. They decided to write their own book. In my opinion the ELCA is as dangerous as wolves in a sheep pen. Matt

I was being absurb but no more than the ELCA has become. Their teachings are herectical.
The ELCA is preaching universal salvation, anti zionism, and denial of the scripture as the word of God. They decided to write their own book.

In my opinion the ELCA is as dangerous as wolves in a sheep pen.

]]> By: Enough http://mattcleaver.com/2009/08/21/2009-elca-churchwide-assembly-thoughts-from-one-in-the-minority/#comment-9993 Enough Sun, 03 Jan 2010 22:16:43 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1360#comment-9993 Why you would want to stay in a denomination that continues to make policy decisions and change theology that goes against God's word, is beyond me. You would not stay in a Christ that denies Christ is the only way to heaven would you? Opps. I forgot that the ELCA is now promoting theology and making policy decisions based on Universal Salvation. The vote was just another piece of straw on the camel's back. They deny God's word at every turn. Staying in that denomination is kind of like hangin' with Satan, Imo. Check out http://www.exposingtheelca.com. For those that actually think the Bible is God's Word. Pass this on. Why you would want to stay in a denomination that continues to make policy decisions and change theology that goes against God’s word, is beyond me. You would not stay in a Christ that denies Christ is the only way to heaven would you? Opps. I forgot that the ELCA is now promoting theology and making policy decisions based on Universal Salvation. The vote was just another piece of straw on the camel’s back. They deny God’s word at every turn. Staying in that denomination is kind of like hangin’ with Satan, Imo. Check out http://www.exposingtheelca.com. For those that actually think the Bible is God’s Word. Pass this on.

]]> By: Sue http://mattcleaver.com/2009/08/21/2009-elca-churchwide-assembly-thoughts-from-one-in-the-minority/#comment-9992 Sue Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:47:04 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1360#comment-9992 I am not in agreement with the CWA outcome but for now I will stay with my church. My concern is with churches like herchurch.org. This is an ELCA church with lesbian pastors. They do not use the word God for God but but call God Goddess and they call Jesus Sophia. Is this what we can expect from churches pastored by lesbians? Why does the ELCA not discipline this church. This is scary stuff. God help us all. I am not in agreement with the CWA outcome but for now I will stay with my church. My concern is with churches like herchurch.org. This is an ELCA church with lesbian pastors. They do not use the word God for God but but call God Goddess and they call Jesus Sophia. Is this what we can expect from churches pastored by lesbians? Why does the ELCA not discipline this church. This is scary stuff. God help us all.

]]> By: Brit Windel http://mattcleaver.com/2009/08/21/2009-elca-churchwide-assembly-thoughts-from-one-in-the-minority/#comment-9991 Brit Windel Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:59:29 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1360#comment-9991 Matt i love you in the most hetero-sexual Christ filled way possible :-D I'm thinking of actually applying for a Diplomat//Ambassador position here real soon with all the politically correct, patient, love filled, positive rhetoric I've had to us in the past few months in ministry here, defending all that God has done and will continue to do in the midst of the ELCA's stance.... Just like God is still moving in the PCusa and the Episcopal churches who faced this as well... Just like in the Baptist churches with their strong views on women leadership (or lack there of) just like God's Spirit even moving through a non church member to give water or food to the very presence of Christ found in the homeless. I think...no... I know a lot of the remarks made here are very childish and God limiting based on human action. If my God can be out smarted and out done by a vote...he is not much of a God Matt i love you in the most hetero-sexual Christ filled way possible :-D I’m thinking of actually applying for a Diplomat//Ambassador position here real soon with all the politically correct, patient, love filled, positive rhetoric I’ve had to us in the past few months in ministry here, defending all that God has done and will continue to do in the midst of the ELCA’s stance…. Just like God is still moving in the PCusa and the Episcopal churches who faced this as well… Just like in the Baptist churches with their strong views on women leadership (or lack there of) just like God’s Spirit even moving through a non church member to give water or food to the very presence of Christ found in the homeless. I think…no… I know a lot of the remarks made here are very childish and God limiting based on human action. If my God can be out smarted and out done by a vote…he is not much of a God

]]> By: Kevin Mattison http://mattcleaver.com/2009/08/21/2009-elca-churchwide-assembly-thoughts-from-one-in-the-minority/#comment-9990 Kevin Mattison Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:52:28 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1360#comment-9990 Matt, Thanks for your honesty and openness! Being committed to the church takes guts! Thanks for having guts man! Matt,

Thanks for your honesty and openness! Being committed to the church takes guts! Thanks for having guts man!

]]> By: Matt http://mattcleaver.com/2009/08/21/2009-elca-churchwide-assembly-thoughts-from-one-in-the-minority/#comment-9989 Matt Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:34:21 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1360#comment-9989 That is absurd. Unitarians are anti-trinitarian and deny the incarnation. The ELCA is not even close to the Unitarians. That is absurd. Unitarians are anti-trinitarian and deny the incarnation. The ELCA is not even close to the Unitarians.

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