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	<title>Comments on: 13 Reasons Why (Traditional) Seminaries are Irrelevant (For Church Leaders): Part 2</title>
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	<link>http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/29/13-reasons-why-traditional-seminaries-are-irrelevant-for-church-leaders-part-2/</link>
	<description>youth ministry, reimagined</description>
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		<title>By: Stephanie</title>
		<link>http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/29/13-reasons-why-traditional-seminaries-are-irrelevant-for-church-leaders-part-2/#comment-19283</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephanie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1076#comment-19283</guid>
		<description>Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/29/13-reasons-why-traditional-seminaries-are-irrelevant-for-church-leaders-part-2/#comment-19244</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1076#comment-19244</guid>
		<description>Where did you go to seminary? Sounds like they are taking the right approach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where did you go to seminary? Sounds like they are taking the right approach.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephanie</title>
		<link>http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/29/13-reasons-why-traditional-seminaries-are-irrelevant-for-church-leaders-part-2/#comment-19198</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephanie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 04:47:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1076#comment-19198</guid>
		<description>I must have had a radically different seminary experience, though I do agree with #7.

I graduated from seminary a year ago and I can say, without a doubt in my mind, that I could not do this job as well as I do without that education. I was educated from a theological standpoint, yes, but also had many classes that were practical in nature - on leadership, system structure, church politics, adaptive challenges, counseling, etc - that have made my ability to do this work better. I also was required to do 250 hrs of field education, with a supervisor, while there. This helped me &quot;put legs&quot; on what they would theorize about in the classroom. Plus the fact I&#039;d done ministry in the church before going there helped, as I had previous experience to draw form and help me relate to the issues talked about.

Perhaps the fact I felt so well-prepared is due to two things: 1.) The seminary had just finished years of research interviewing pastors and the families of pastors who left the ministry to do completely different jobs. They integrated their findings into the classroom, helping prepare us for what burn-out looks like. 2.) I am still in contact with some of my seminary professors (and my field education director) plus several fellow students, all who give me advice, are sounding boards, and help me through some of the tough stuff I face day-to-day. That network of support is vital to help keep me going.

All this combined made my seminary experience invaluable and anything but irrelevant. I am more thankful than every for this after reading your post and the comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must have had a radically different seminary experience, though I do agree with #7.</p>
<p>I graduated from seminary a year ago and I can say, without a doubt in my mind, that I could not do this job as well as I do without that education. I was educated from a theological standpoint, yes, but also had many classes that were practical in nature &#8211; on leadership, system structure, church politics, adaptive challenges, counseling, etc &#8211; that have made my ability to do this work better. I also was required to do 250 hrs of field education, with a supervisor, while there. This helped me &#8220;put legs&#8221; on what they would theorize about in the classroom. Plus the fact I&#8217;d done ministry in the church before going there helped, as I had previous experience to draw form and help me relate to the issues talked about.</p>
<p>Perhaps the fact I felt so well-prepared is due to two things: 1.) The seminary had just finished years of research interviewing pastors and the families of pastors who left the ministry to do completely different jobs. They integrated their findings into the classroom, helping prepare us for what burn-out looks like. 2.) I am still in contact with some of my seminary professors (and my field education director) plus several fellow students, all who give me advice, are sounding boards, and help me through some of the tough stuff I face day-to-day. That network of support is vital to help keep me going.</p>
<p>All this combined made my seminary experience invaluable and anything but irrelevant. I am more thankful than every for this after reading your post and the comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/29/13-reasons-why-traditional-seminaries-are-irrelevant-for-church-leaders-part-2/#comment-18845</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jul 2011 23:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1076#comment-18845</guid>
		<description>Jim, thanks for the comment. I&#039;m sure you would agree that there are less expensive ways of learning to finish something you start!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, thanks for the comment. I&#8217;m sure you would agree that there are less expensive ways of learning to finish something you start!</p>
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		<title>By: jimwideman</title>
		<link>http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/29/13-reasons-why-traditional-seminaries-are-irrelevant-for-church-leaders-part-2/#comment-18778</link>
		<dc:creator>jimwideman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jul 2011 02:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1076#comment-18778</guid>
		<description>great posts! My undergraduate degree in CE is now 33 years old nothing I learned really applies to church today and did not prepare me for 35 years of ministry 25+ in Mega-church land. I do think it taught me how to finish something I started which has been a great life lesson since so many folks who started in ministry with me are not in ministry any longer.  I didn&#039;t go to seminary but went straight to working in a church. Now in my late 50&#039;s I do wish I had a post graduate degree. Some of my books are used in seminaries I don&#039;t think the extra degree would do anything for me but I still wish I had one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great posts! My undergraduate degree in CE is now 33 years old nothing I learned really applies to church today and did not prepare me for 35 years of ministry 25+ in Mega-church land. I do think it taught me how to finish something I started which has been a great life lesson since so many folks who started in ministry with me are not in ministry any longer.  I didn&#8217;t go to seminary but went straight to working in a church. Now in my late 50&#8242;s I do wish I had a post graduate degree. Some of my books are used in seminaries I don&#8217;t think the extra degree would do anything for me but I still wish I had one.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/29/13-reasons-why-traditional-seminaries-are-irrelevant-for-church-leaders-part-2/#comment-8893</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 15:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1076#comment-8893</guid>
		<description>Yes sir.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes sir.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/29/13-reasons-why-traditional-seminaries-are-irrelevant-for-church-leaders-part-2/#comment-8892</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1076#comment-8892</guid>
		<description>How about this: when we&#039;re 90 years old we both revisit these posts and see who &quot;wins&quot;?

Thanks for the thoughts. I&#039;m looking forward to more lively discussion over at goingtoseminary.com. Are you going to do it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about this: when we&#8217;re 90 years old we both revisit these posts and see who &#8220;wins&#8221;?</p>
<p>Thanks for the thoughts. I&#8217;m looking forward to more lively discussion over at goingtoseminary.com. Are you going to do it?</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler</title>
		<link>http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/29/13-reasons-why-traditional-seminaries-are-irrelevant-for-church-leaders-part-2/#comment-8891</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1076#comment-8891</guid>
		<description>Gosh...I have to tackle more of these :) Good points man, well thought through.

#7. Totally agree. You get what you pay for though. If a seminary is cheap it probably says something about its quality.
#8. Partially true. I think this goes back to what I said yesterday. People follow leaders. Seminaries raise up and help leaders be knowledgeable and qualified.
#9. I haven&#039;t seen that. Maybe more so in denominational seminaries, which I agree with you...are a thing of the past.
#10. Very true. However, seminary is much more than resources for me.
#11. Internet classes are rarely as good as face to face. But I do agree that good seminaries are rethinking how they can take advantage of having a location and the internet at their disposal.
#12. This for me is a personal choice. You can do seminary in 2 or 3 years...or you can take your time and let it soak in. I am choosing the latter. 2 years in and I&#039;m not even half-way done.
#13. Certainly the church can do a better job of discipleship and teaching outside of the Sunday morning context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh&#8230;I have to tackle more of these <img src='http://mattcleaver.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Good points man, well thought through.</p>
<p>#7. Totally agree. You get what you pay for though. If a seminary is cheap it probably says something about its quality.<br />
#8. Partially true. I think this goes back to what I said yesterday. People follow leaders. Seminaries raise up and help leaders be knowledgeable and qualified.<br />
#9. I haven&#8217;t seen that. Maybe more so in denominational seminaries, which I agree with you&#8230;are a thing of the past.<br />
#10. Very true. However, seminary is much more than resources for me.<br />
#11. Internet classes are rarely as good as face to face. But I do agree that good seminaries are rethinking how they can take advantage of having a location and the internet at their disposal.<br />
#12. This for me is a personal choice. You can do seminary in 2 or 3 years&#8230;or you can take your time and let it soak in. I am choosing the latter. 2 years in and I&#8217;m not even half-way done.<br />
#13. Certainly the church can do a better job of discipleship and teaching outside of the Sunday morning context.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/29/13-reasons-why-traditional-seminaries-are-irrelevant-for-church-leaders-part-2/#comment-8890</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1076#comment-8890</guid>
		<description>Laura, thanks for joining the conversation. I think I will include a postscript on this mini-series about my own personal love for education, scholarship, and academia. I think it will help to balance where I&#039;m coming from; I might come across as too adversarial right now.

I&#039;m honestly just looking at current cultural trends, shifts in ecclesiology that are beginning to take place, and my own experience in a non-traditional seminary program and making some observations about the future. Yes, it will be difficult and it will take time, but I think the church will be better off for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laura, thanks for joining the conversation. I think I will include a postscript on this mini-series about my own personal love for education, scholarship, and academia. I think it will help to balance where I&#8217;m coming from; I might come across as too adversarial right now.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m honestly just looking at current cultural trends, shifts in ecclesiology that are beginning to take place, and my own experience in a non-traditional seminary program and making some observations about the future. Yes, it will be difficult and it will take time, but I think the church will be better off for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/29/13-reasons-why-traditional-seminaries-are-irrelevant-for-church-leaders-part-2/#comment-8889</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mattcleaver.com/?p=1076#comment-8889</guid>
		<description>These are very interesting and thought-provoking.  I personally have found #12 to be true; I would have liked to take pastoral care after entering professional church ministry when it would have made much more sense in a more practical setting.

It&#039;s going to be tough, though, to reinvent what seminary should be when it&#039;s hard to imagine anything other than what has already been.  I enjoyed my time in seminary, but I also see how it didn&#039;t prepare me for a lot of the practical needs of parish ministry.  I was taken aback when I discovered that church work was, to a great extent, administrative.  No one had warned me about that.

I&#039;ll need to ponder more, but this is a wonderful and thought-provoking list.  Thanks for posting it.

Laura</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are very interesting and thought-provoking.  I personally have found #12 to be true; I would have liked to take pastoral care after entering professional church ministry when it would have made much more sense in a more practical setting.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s going to be tough, though, to reinvent what seminary should be when it&#8217;s hard to imagine anything other than what has already been.  I enjoyed my time in seminary, but I also see how it didn&#8217;t prepare me for a lot of the practical needs of parish ministry.  I was taken aback when I discovered that church work was, to a great extent, administrative.  No one had warned me about that.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll need to ponder more, but this is a wonderful and thought-provoking list.  Thanks for posting it.</p>
<p>Laura</p>
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