Comments on: Roger Olson on the Atonement http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/ youth ministry, reimagined Sun, 18 Mar 2012 06:12:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Matt http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8790 Matt Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:09:11 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8790 Haha, well, I know what you were getting at. Thanks for the comments. Haha, well, I know what you were getting at. Thanks for the comments.

]]> By: Grant Alcorn http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8789 Grant Alcorn Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:07:47 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8789 My apologies for poor spelling and editing! My apologies for poor spelling and editing!

]]> By: Grant Alcorn http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8788 Grant Alcorn Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:29:32 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8788 Hello: I currently sit on the Examining Councilfor my Denomination. I would hold the view that even Calvin held -- Gasp! -- that the Atonement is multifacted and has many layers of understanding but that a Substitutionary Motif as the main organizing idea. To believe in less then a Substitutionary Motif is problematic for me. To believe in the former plus embracing other ways of understanding the work of Christ on the Cross is perfectly acceptable. Hello:

I currently sit on the Examining Councilfor my Denomination. I would hold the view that even Calvin held — Gasp! — that the Atonement is multifacted and has many layers of understanding but that a Substitutionary Motif as the main organizing idea.

To believe in less then a Substitutionary Motif is problematic for me. To believe in the former plus embracing other ways of understanding the work of Christ on the Cross is perfectly acceptable.

]]> By: Nick http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8787 Nick Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:34:51 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8787 "I am most interested in your statement that Sola Fide is only true if PSA is true. Have you written about this specifically? That might give me a starting place on your blog." Hi, Yes I have written about that specifically. The key to realize is that Sola Fide is basically a recognition by faith that the Great Exchange took place for you. The Great Exchange is the "double imputation" consisting of Christ's Righteousness imputed to you and your sin/guilt imputed to Christ. Penal Substitution and your sin imputed to Christ are the same thing, so if that didn't happen, then the Great Exchange didn't take place, and thus Sola Fide is not correct. This is why Reformed Protestants are especially up in arms all over the blogosphere at recent attempts to throw out or undermine or water down PSA. The book The Shack which recently came out is supposedly denying PSA and receiving a lot of attention. My main article on my blog now shows how major theologians teaching PSA teach that Jesus was damned in place of the Christian (because sin demands the punishment of hell), and I don't believe that would ever be advocated on it's own. I believe it is reluctantly held because Sola Fide is at stake: http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/ “I am most interested in your statement that Sola Fide is only true if PSA is true. Have you written about this specifically? That might give me a starting place on your blog.”

Hi,
Yes I have written about that specifically. The key to realize is that Sola Fide is basically a recognition by faith that the Great Exchange took place for you. The Great Exchange is the “double imputation” consisting of Christ’s Righteousness imputed to you and your sin/guilt imputed to Christ.
Penal Substitution and your sin imputed to Christ are the same thing, so if that didn’t happen, then the Great Exchange didn’t take place, and thus Sola Fide is not correct.

This is why Reformed Protestants are especially up in arms all over the blogosphere at recent attempts to throw out or undermine or water down PSA. The book The Shack which recently came out is supposedly denying PSA and receiving a lot of attention.

My main article on my blog now shows how major theologians teaching PSA teach that Jesus was damned in place of the Christian (because sin demands the punishment of hell), and I don’t believe that would ever be advocated on it’s own. I believe it is reluctantly held because Sola Fide is at stake:
http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/

]]> By: Matt http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8786 Matt Mon, 27 Apr 2009 01:56:37 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8786 Hey Nick, I browsed your site quite quickly and didn't have a chance to really dig into your thought. Hopefully I will get a chance as it would be great to read a Roman Catholic perspective. I'm not denying penal substitution, in fact I just wrote a short assignment for class defending it against those who view it is cosmic child abuse. That quote just was meant to illustrate that PSA isn't the only, historical, exclusive understanding of the atonement. I am most interested in your statement that Sola Fide is only true if PSA is true. Have you written about this specifically? That might give me a starting place on your blog. Thanks, hope to chat more. Hey Nick, I browsed your site quite quickly and didn’t have a chance to really dig into your thought. Hopefully I will get a chance as it would be great to read a Roman Catholic perspective.

I’m not denying penal substitution, in fact I just wrote a short assignment for class defending it against those who view it is cosmic child abuse. That quote just was meant to illustrate that PSA isn’t the only, historical, exclusive understanding of the atonement.

I am most interested in your statement that Sola Fide is only true if PSA is true. Have you written about this specifically? That might give me a starting place on your blog.

Thanks, hope to chat more.

]]> By: Nick http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8785 Nick Sun, 26 Apr 2009 00:49:31 +0000 http://mattcleaver.com/2009/04/25/roger-olson-on-the-atonement/#comment-8785 "Exactly how God reconciled the world to himself by means of Christ’s death on the cross is the subject of much speculation and theological reflection and is a reason for great diversity among Christians." While true on the basic level, the fact is how you see the cross on a systematic theology level makes all the difference in the world. Sola Fide is only true if Penal Substitution is true, so to deny Psub actually undermines Sola Fide whether you realize it or not. The Reformers and those who followed them realized this, and that's why they affirmed Psub. “Exactly how God reconciled the world to himself by means of Christ’s death on the cross is the subject of much speculation and theological reflection and is a reason for great diversity among Christians.”

While true on the basic level, the fact is how you see the cross on a systematic theology level makes all the difference in the world. Sola Fide is only true if Penal Substitution is true, so to deny Psub actually undermines Sola Fide whether you realize it or not. The Reformers and those who followed them realized this, and that’s why they affirmed Psub.

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